Filet o-Fishy at McDonalds

[thessalian]

I really don't know what to make of this.

The basic story is this: Trans individual, Z Bellamy, age seventeen, applies online for job at McDonalds. Goes in for interview and is forced to tick a box identifying gender. Trans individual ticked 'male' - the article doesn't say whether the individual in question is MTF or FTM, so it's a little hard to say why. The assumption I'm forced to based on the alleged voicemail is that Bellamy is MTF, because the voicemail Bellamy received after this initial interview went on about how "You are not getting an interview; we do not hire faggots. You are a lying brother; how could you?"

...I'm very, very confused, and becoming less sure that this is on the level the more I think about it.

Okay, so I've never been through any of the processes involved myself, but I'm not entirely ignorant about various things someone going through the transition in gender tend to go through. There's a lot of paperwork involved to get changes made on passports, driving licences, all that sort of thing so that the gender on one's ID matches the gender with which the individual identifies. (I am aware that there are issues involving birth certificates and a big argument about whether or not those should be reissued to reflect a gender transition, but that's beside the point here.) I do get that Bellamy, at age seventeen, would have some problems getting those changes made to the relevant documents on the basis of still being a minor, but given that Bellamy is apparently living as female, I have my doubts as to whether the parents would really have that many issues with helping get the paperwork sorted out. So ... with all that taken into account, why didn't Bellamy just tick 'female' on the damn box? Bellamy identifies as female; Bellamy is apparently living as female. Why put 'male' on a form handed out during the interview process?

I'm also really dubious about this voicemail thing. I can see someone saying it to someone's face, or over the phone, sure. But anyone in a managerial capacity at a multinational corporation the likes of McDonalds would have been briefed most thoroughly on the principle of not putting that kind of discriminatory bullshit out where it can be used as proof in a lawsuit. Seriously, in this economy, with this many people looking for jobs, any manager worth their paycheque would have simply sent the usual form letter. No one gives reasons for not hiring someone, particularly not when they go against ever equal opportunity policy a company has. I ... am just very, very dubious about this. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened; I'm just saying that I have serious doubts. Plus the sound quality of that recording is poor enough that voice analysis is going to be a bitch, and the inflection was all wrong for someone angry as the wording suggests.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the manager said all of this stuff about how "we don't hire faggots" to Bellamy's face in the preliminary interview, after Bellamy was 'called out' on the subject of birth gender, and that the call was made by someone who could mimic the manager reasonably well - perhaps another employee or former employee - to strengthen the case. Or just to get some attention. If that's the case ... well, I think it's sad. And if someone really was stupid enough to leave that kind of voicemail ... well, then I still think it's sad. Just a different kind of sad. You know; pathetic-sad.

Time and detail will tell.

Comments

[rm.livejournal.com]

The individual is MtF.

Every state has different laws about when gender may be changed on official documentation. Many require the individual to have had some amount of surgery, which man trans people cannot afford or do not wish to have for various reasons. It is extremely common for assigned gender at birth to remain on official documents long after (and sometimes permanently) an individual begins living as their gender because of the vagaries of state laws. I don't know what the deal is in Florida specifically, but it seems likely that no matter how supportive the family, it would be next to impossible for someone that age to have been able to have their gender changed on official documents.

Bellamy most likely ticked male on the form, because if she is hired, she would have to provide her legal documentation in order to show she is eligible to work and get paid. Therefore, ticking a box that did not match with the legal documentation would be at best, confusing at the employment paperwork stage or grounds for dismissal had she been hired, because it would be tantamount to lying in an interview, because of the nature of official paperwork and employment law.

I'm uncomfortable with you assuming the alleged victim in the case is lying. Of course, we have an innocent until proven guilty legal system, so if we presume innocence on the part of the McDonald's manager, we must, logically presume something inappropriate on the part of the alleged victim. I get that. But saying "man, I hope no one is that stupid/that much of an asshole" about the managers alleged behavior (as you do, and on this I agree) is much more palatable to me than some of the assumptions in this post.

I know stuff like you're speculating about here can and does happen (I grew up in NYC during the Tawana Brawley mess, afterall), but I'm uncomfortable with the assumption that a member of a frequently oppressed group is somehow more likely to be making up ill-treatment for attention than the actual victim of ill-treatment.

[thessalian.livejournal.com]

Okay, I think we're at cross-purposes here. I am not for one moment assuming that Bellamy is lying about having been abused in that way by that manager. What I said was that I believed ('have a sneaking suspicion' were my exact words) that those comments were made to Bellamy's face in the preliminary interview rather than on a recorded voicemail message. Because to me, that makes a lot more sense - what bigot actually sits there with just an angry look and says nothing, only to ring up later with nasty comments? Generally when someone looks that angry, they actually just come out with it, or they don't say it at all.

I could be wrong, gods know. But while I am sorry that the post made you uncomfortable, I'm not making any assumptions that touch on whether or not the abuse happened, and I never voiced any. I think the abuse happened; it's the proof of it as provided thus far that I have questions about.

[rm.livejournal.com]

That's fair that I might have well missed your main point in terms of what you suspect may or may not have happened. Thank you for clarifying, and on that point, I certainly apologize.

I'm still unsettled however by your unwillingness to acknowledge that getting gender reassigned on legal documents is perhaps more challenging than you realize and that you seem to have decided what is appropriate behavior for a trans person regarding their paperwork and employment.

[thessalian.livejournal.com]

If my silence on the subject of the legal documents was indicative to you that I was unwilling to acknowledge the difficulty one might experience in doing so ... sorry. Actually, my silence was more, "I'm in an entirely different country and have never had to do this, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut", so to speak. Mostly because when we fill out application forms here, there's less of a "what gender are you?" on the forms (except for the equal opportunities policy ones, where you have the option of "I would prefer not to say"), and more of a "what is your title - Mr/Ms/Miss/Mrs/Whatever?"

Also, it's less what I think is appropriate behaviour than thinking that it's unfair that someone should have to sit down and mark a bit of paper with a gender with which they don't identify just because that's what it says on their birth certificate. Isn't that the point? If I were in that position, I would tend to think it's not anyone's business what's on my paperwork. I know it's difficult and I know there are a lot of problems I don't understand because I will probably never face them, but the crux is trying to be identified in the way in which one feels comfortable, and failing because someone is obliging this fairly arbitrary (particularly in this day and age of supposed equality in the workplace) need to pigeonhole by gender in application forms.

[meirion.livejournal.com]

It really isn't that easy in this country either. Although it's worse in some other European countries where one *can't* just use "Dr" as an escape-the-question get-out.

Filling in equal opportunities forms that ask for gender (M/F/TG/other), sexuality and religion is bad enough, although I suppose a bi FtM Christian might just boggle their brains so much that their EO systems spontaneously combust ;-)

Trans Employees

[navytron89.livejournal.com]

Before I go into an answer let me do my default anti-racist comment here. I'm an equal offender of anyone. I don't spare people's feelings for the sake of political correctness or other bullshit that their Egos can't handle. If your offended its because I've commented on a probable truth that most people if it was done under comedic license would have laughed to avoid feeling badly about. Rather than thinking that its a social taboo that I've spoken my mind without fear from being forced into PC world because of some assumed victim of an imaginary thought crime.

Depending on where s/he's at in Orlando it doesn't really surprise me. Homophobia with in the Black/African American community is still common place and is even more hypocritical towards their fellow Blacks. Part of that irony is the Christian upbringing that happens and they have issues of identity to begin with. Throw gender issues into the mix, possibly there was flirting or other social issues, that could have lead to the voicemail.

I think that there was a "Brother getting his groove on" with Z. After s/he filled out "male" and the manager saw it, of course they just flipped out or lost their cool because of male ego being a fragile thing. I know a lot of Brothers who get bent out of shape over their masculinity issues. I'll go into more detail below about this action.

Back on deployment when we stopped in France, a few of the Brothers went out and hit a few of the clubs including a "Tranny" Bar that they didn't know it was one. They came back to the ship and people teased them about being on the "Down Low" aka being closeted gays or bisexuals. Of course this being a issue with them the EEO and Ship's Shrink came into play especially after fights broke out in the mess decks and also in various commands because of the "down low" comments tossed at them.

White Christianity justified slavery to Europeans and allowed for Africans and other non-white groups to be sold as property because they were inferior to others. Modern Christianity (Baptist/Southern Baptist) movement has had a large influx of Blacks because of their need to have a communal grouping. There are several anthro papers on this and argue that the social needs of Blacks is still group based, rather than the individual identity which is why group structure is still so important to them for social interaction. It unfortunately argues social inferiority which is why its also controversial on a politically correct avenue as well.

But the thing is that the biggest religious taboo of Baptists are homosexuality, and not infidelity. So a person can be forgiven if his cheats on his/her spouse. But if its with the same sex as the offender then your a social outcast within not only the community but the church as well because of this taboo. The minsters of the Baptist community often spend a lot of time condemning homosexual as a general rule. They blame them for the feminization of men and the weakening of our society's moral strength.

Blacks with turn on each other first before attacking outsiders in a social group if they think that their fellow Black has betrayed them for any cultural issue. This includes social taboos of gender identity that seems to have happened here. I would believe that the manager feels betrayed by Z because of the fact that he sees a "woman" and would like to socialize with her even if she doesn't get the job, fratenization aside. The fact that Z is a Transgender individual no calls into question the managers sexual orientation to himself, uncomfortable with this realization he most likely acted out against Z to hide his own social and ego discomfort which is why he made said voice post to make himself feel better and protect his frail ego that had been wounded by a imagined slight of social taboo.

[xtricks.livejournal.com]

It's actually kind of a pain in the ass getting a paperwork change done and Florida is *not* an enlightened state on those sorts of issues. Sometimes you need proof of surgery, sometimes you need proof of both 'upper' and 'lower' surgery – and genital surgery for M2Fs is pretty expensive; a 17 year old girl getting a job at McDonalds is very unlikely to have had it done – not even including the fact that some surgeons won't do folks who are under 18 or 21.

So, paperwork – not simple.

The black community is, in general, much more homophobic and transphobic than whites in our country – I would not be at all surprised about this voicemail thing, the guy feels perfectly justified in what he believes. Also, a McDonald's manager – probably not a guy who had a lot of training in appropriate managerial practices.

Finally, Florida, does not prohibit discrimination based on trans/queer status – and neither does Orlando. So, technically, The guy who said 'won't hire faggots' is not breaking the law so there is no actual, legal penalty the guy is facing at this time. Since it's not illegal, it's entirely likely that he was given no training/instruction about gender and sexual identity discrimination.

All of which would make this whole thing ugly and implying that the victim in a situation like this is being deceptive is ugly too.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Seriously, people like that manager ARE that stupid. I say this having worked in retail, social services and marketing. I have seen things from people, heard things from people, that you would never in a million years imagine someone was stupid enough to say on a recorded line. And it wasn't just the ordinary folk but professionals as well.

In many places, checking a different gender from the one you are legally assigned can be consider "lying" on your work application and be grounds for rejection.