Pagan Ponderings
Mar. 9th, 2006 12:23 pmCommentary on that pagan who was on Wife Swap last night. I mainly read this because I thought, "Oh, hey, when she says 'Janet and Gavin', does she mean the Janet and Gav that
dodgyhoodoo talks about?" Janet Farrar, yep. This is probably the first time I've seen people I've heard of referenced by total strangers. Of course, context is also interesting, because it touches on a couple of worrying points that come up in pagan communities (in fact, in most any communities): charlatanism, infighting and interpretational issues.
Charlatanism: This Belladonna character, if this is right, sounds like some piece of work. The reason that Janet and Gavin came up in all of this is because this woman, eight months after asking for teachers, started announcing that they were 3rd degree Gardnerians, citing Janet as part of their lineage via a Mr DeMartins. Never mind the fact that going from seeker to 3rd degree in such a short time is pretty much unheard of. According to the OP (original poster), she asked around and Janet hadn't even heard of this DeMartins person. I'd personally like independent confirmation of that, but I don't think it's unheard of. As far as financial compensation goes ... there's a whole big debate on that going on in the Pentacle forums (which I currently can't access) and the general agreement seems to go that, in terms of acting as a guest speaker at a convention or what have you, charging's okay, but beyond that, not really. There was even minor debate on the issue of charging money for training, but I think that was in the case of things like herbalism or anything else truly specialist, but I don't remember at the minute. However, charging to let people into her Imbolc ritual? On the grounds of "I am using the money to build a new driveway so that more people can come by"? That's just not on. That's not what rituals are about, from what I can tell; they're about communion or achieving a goal or both, not about just being there and saying, "Wow, look at me being a witch!"
(I had a conversation about the purposes of ritual with
dodgyhoodoo last night. Basically, the gist of what we said was "Sometimes you have a goal in mind, sometimes you're doing the ritual just to touch base with Deity and sometimes you're doing it as communion and celebration, but whether or not your ritual has a goal, it should have a purpose. You shouldn't just be doing it because it's something you ought to be doing, or because doing so makes you more of a pagan, or because someone told you to." Purposeless ritual, much like purposelessly pretty ritual tools, does not lend credibility to what you are doing. If asked, I'd suggest that, if you're being trained in a trad that is telling you to do a ritual but isn't telling you why, make your own purpose so it's not just a general waste of time.)
Interpretational issues: After the OP had her say, there was a surprising amount of disapproval from the rest of the community. Various people accused her of "violating the Rede". For those of you not in the know, the Rede is that "An ye harm none, do as you will" thing. Also for those of you not in the know, it and the Threefold Rule are not as ancient as people would have you believe (I think dating back to the 1980s), and are seen more as guidelines anyway. The interpretational issue here is probably on the word 'harm', though. Honestly, have these people never heard the one that goes "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? If you see bullshit, you have a duty to call 'bullshit' in whatever language suits you, lest a whole bunch of people be hurt (conned, badly trained or worse) by the perpetrator of the bullshit. Anyone who wants to hide behind the Rede to keep anyone from saying or doing something that offends them needs to remember that the world is a nasty place, that the Rede is a suggestion rather than a command, and (as someone in those comments quite eloquently said) Baba Yaga was described as having iron skin for a reason. You can't count on "An ye harm none" to prevent people from offending you. Deal with it. If more people ripped into more con artists and uberfluffs, the pagan community might get taken a bit more seriously, you know?
Infighting: "Infighting scares away the newbies!", comes the whimper. "No it bloody doesn't," say I. Yes, it scares away some people ... like, for instance, the fluffies who rely on the Rede to keep people from calling them on bullshit. It does not scare me. You want to know what would scare me? A lack of infighting. With so many different factions and trads, with charlatans, fluffies and high-and-mighty self-righteous types thrown under the same umbrella with the sensible, moderate pagans because the common man can't tell the difference, there has to be infighting. If there wasn't, I'd wonder what the hell cult I'd stumbled onto where no one's allowed an opinion. When it's a matter of faith or ritual, things are going to get heated because faith is a thing that matters to people and if you don't get emotional about what matters to you, you're just plain not human. I can deal with that, provided I'm allowed to join in when I have something to rant about, and I am, so that's okay. The only thing I find intimidating is the onslaught of names that results from the infighting, but that's passing. (I still never got it entirely clear about the Alexandrians and Gardnerians, except that it was a great big schism that wasn't really.) And incidentally, if you don't want infighting, don't perpetuate it by going onto someone's (entirely allowable) warning post on forum and bitch at them for violating Rede and LJ TOS, particularly when they're not doing either of those things.
Overall, I find I'm learning a whole lot about who I am and where I stand on this whole pagan thing, entirely because of the bullshit. I certainly know what I'm not looking for, and now all I have to do is find out how far I want to take what I am looking for. Of course, that would involve getting into a conversation that doesn't involve calling 'bullshit' on fluffies and con artists, which can be rather difficult ... but that's a rant for another day.
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Charlatanism: This Belladonna character, if this is right, sounds like some piece of work. The reason that Janet and Gavin came up in all of this is because this woman, eight months after asking for teachers, started announcing that they were 3rd degree Gardnerians, citing Janet as part of their lineage via a Mr DeMartins. Never mind the fact that going from seeker to 3rd degree in such a short time is pretty much unheard of. According to the OP (original poster), she asked around and Janet hadn't even heard of this DeMartins person. I'd personally like independent confirmation of that, but I don't think it's unheard of. As far as financial compensation goes ... there's a whole big debate on that going on in the Pentacle forums (which I currently can't access) and the general agreement seems to go that, in terms of acting as a guest speaker at a convention or what have you, charging's okay, but beyond that, not really. There was even minor debate on the issue of charging money for training, but I think that was in the case of things like herbalism or anything else truly specialist, but I don't remember at the minute. However, charging to let people into her Imbolc ritual? On the grounds of "I am using the money to build a new driveway so that more people can come by"? That's just not on. That's not what rituals are about, from what I can tell; they're about communion or achieving a goal or both, not about just being there and saying, "Wow, look at me being a witch!"
(I had a conversation about the purposes of ritual with
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
Interpretational issues: After the OP had her say, there was a surprising amount of disapproval from the rest of the community. Various people accused her of "violating the Rede". For those of you not in the know, the Rede is that "An ye harm none, do as you will" thing. Also for those of you not in the know, it and the Threefold Rule are not as ancient as people would have you believe (I think dating back to the 1980s), and are seen more as guidelines anyway. The interpretational issue here is probably on the word 'harm', though. Honestly, have these people never heard the one that goes "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? If you see bullshit, you have a duty to call 'bullshit' in whatever language suits you, lest a whole bunch of people be hurt (conned, badly trained or worse) by the perpetrator of the bullshit. Anyone who wants to hide behind the Rede to keep anyone from saying or doing something that offends them needs to remember that the world is a nasty place, that the Rede is a suggestion rather than a command, and (as someone in those comments quite eloquently said) Baba Yaga was described as having iron skin for a reason. You can't count on "An ye harm none" to prevent people from offending you. Deal with it. If more people ripped into more con artists and uberfluffs, the pagan community might get taken a bit more seriously, you know?
Infighting: "Infighting scares away the newbies!", comes the whimper. "No it bloody doesn't," say I. Yes, it scares away some people ... like, for instance, the fluffies who rely on the Rede to keep people from calling them on bullshit. It does not scare me. You want to know what would scare me? A lack of infighting. With so many different factions and trads, with charlatans, fluffies and high-and-mighty self-righteous types thrown under the same umbrella with the sensible, moderate pagans because the common man can't tell the difference, there has to be infighting. If there wasn't, I'd wonder what the hell cult I'd stumbled onto where no one's allowed an opinion. When it's a matter of faith or ritual, things are going to get heated because faith is a thing that matters to people and if you don't get emotional about what matters to you, you're just plain not human. I can deal with that, provided I'm allowed to join in when I have something to rant about, and I am, so that's okay. The only thing I find intimidating is the onslaught of names that results from the infighting, but that's passing. (I still never got it entirely clear about the Alexandrians and Gardnerians, except that it was a great big schism that wasn't really.) And incidentally, if you don't want infighting, don't perpetuate it by going onto someone's (entirely allowable) warning post on forum and bitch at them for violating Rede and LJ TOS, particularly when they're not doing either of those things.
Overall, I find I'm learning a whole lot about who I am and where I stand on this whole pagan thing, entirely because of the bullshit. I certainly know what I'm not looking for, and now all I have to do is find out how far I want to take what I am looking for. Of course, that would involve getting into a conversation that doesn't involve calling 'bullshit' on fluffies and con artists, which can be rather difficult ... but that's a rant for another day.